Creative Ideas For Freeing Splines

"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile) 01/05/2015 at 14:22 • Filed to: None

0

58

I am disassembling my Jag IRS for cleaning, seal replacement, shaft shortening, and other things. The only problem so far is, that apparently the RH half-shaft is stuck in the hub so firmly it may require dynamite. I now ask for clever ideas on how to free it up (what's been tried below). If it were out, it would look like this:

The hub carrier it is lodged in looks like this:

Things I have already tried:

Hammering (soft-face hammer)

Heating (with torch, followed by application of penetrant)

More penetrating oil

Last but not least, putting it in a press, more than once

The problem with the press seems to be that I can't get anything caught on the wheel flange, so any attempts to press the shaft out are spreading that press between both hub bearings and the flange, and distributing force harmlessly into the carrier. The problem with heating appears to be that the whole thing is a massive heat soak, so heating anything (either the flange or the axle, then shock-cooling) is very, very hard to get any effect from.

I have a spare half-shaft, so plans that involve destroying the shaft may be on the table.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:25

0

Just get the reticulating kind and you'll be good.

'Wägen, EPA LOL > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:26

2

Can you construct some sort of slide hammer onto the shaft? That and a ton of elbow grease may be just the trick., but just my $0.02.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:28

0

I don't know man. You tried everything I would apart from using a bigger hammer, but good luck!

crowmolly > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:29

0

What are you using to heat? I'd use an oxy/acet rosebud

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:29

0

Heat etc. yeah... I was going to say set it on fire...

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > crowmolly 01/05/2015 at 14:32

0

Yep, that's what I had. Turned up nigh close to max, only barely got it red around the edges after several minutes. The thing's a heat sink like you wouldn't believe.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 01/05/2015 at 14:34

0

I'm thinking the solution may be one more EXTREME heat session, followed by wedging the *flange* (not the hub) in some type of securing bracket and going for a bigger hammer. That way, it probably localizes the shock better and saves the bearing... though it may emfucken the end of the shaft even with a nut on it.

JWLane83 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:34

0

Heating the hub to cherry red with an application of tire crayon wax into the splines. ATF can also work. An air hammer/chisel can also work wonders. Or bite the bullet and have it pressed off at a machine shop and save your sanity for $15?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/05/2015 at 14:34

1

I'm thinking possibly bigger hammer + securing the flange to localize the impact better. That, and more heat.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:35

0

I always say screw penetrating oil unless it is aero-kroil. I use straight ATF soaking. Failing that hit it with oxy -acetelene and get it red hot all over. It wont soak that much heat

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 'Wägen, EPA LOL 01/05/2015 at 14:36

0

The thing is, the splined knockoff wheels on an XKE and some others are known for fusing like glue, so not even these splines but others adjacent are infamous for being hard. I've found pictures of gear pullers being used - giant industrial terrors.

uofime > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:36

0

can you get an air chisel on it?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 01/05/2015 at 14:37

0

I think that's going to be key - that and localizing the impact shock better.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > uofime 01/05/2015 at 14:38

0

On the end of the spline, possibly, but it's too heavy overall to move much. At the back of the hub, not really. Between the hub and the carrier - not worth it, because I'll tear up the aluminum before doing anything useful.

Funktheduck > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:38

0

freeze shaft, heat hub

crowmolly > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:39

0

What kind of press do you have?

I've taken thick bar stock and made some fixtures to press out odd sized stuff before.

PS9 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:40

1

Aim will be tricky...but once it hits, that bolt won't stand a chance!

Also...uhh...try this with the bolt somewhere in a desert. And you...not anywhere near the desert. Trust me, it's for the best.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > JWLane83 01/05/2015 at 14:40

0

I've been dribbling PB into it, and have at least progressed to where PB is going in, and not just sitting in the "pan" in the hub plate. I'm not sure a machine shop would have a much better press than what I have. So far, I'm mostly planning to try heat again (more) and try to focus the shock better, but I was putting it up for anything wacky I hadn't thought of.

'Wägen, EPA LOL > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:42

0

But if you used something like a hinged collar between the two joint ends then add some weight and hand holds, who knows... Puller is probably the best bet if heat isn't working.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:42

0

Yeah I would say it needs to go extreme, something is stuck and needs some persuasive Clarkson method. Yeah that's what I would try. Soaking it in something seriously penetrating for a couple days?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > crowmolly 01/05/2015 at 14:42

0

Very similar to this one. I don't know if ours is a 20-ton offhand, it's probably a bit lower. Still, it's not really a lightweight. That shaft is still saying "haha, fuck you".

uofime > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:44

0

it probably doesn't need to move much, just broken loose.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 01/05/2015 at 14:44

0

Could be. The hell of it is, the other side came off without even a tap.

crowmolly > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:47

0

Mine is almost exactly the same. An ARCAN 20,000 lb'er.

Methinks this is a press job, and you'll have to make some custom supports to hold the carrier and then some other contraption to transfer the pressing force to the hub flage.

I do not envy you, good sir.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:47

0

you have an air hammer with a bunch of bits?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > uofime 01/05/2015 at 14:51

0

Well, I mostly meant that the shaft is too heavy to do much beyond soaking the impacts, but it might work.

davedave1111 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:52

1

Putting it in a press? Don't you want to do the opposite and use a puller/splitter?

With a couple of pieces of threaded bar, a couple of plates, and some nuts, you can pull the world apart.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:53

0

Ah the joys of auto repair. Something has to be wedged in there or its warped. Or its one of those times you kill yourself on it and it comes off easily after you go for a bathroom break.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 01/05/2015 at 14:53

0

Yeah, except (long story) the air comp is disconnected at the moment. I'm assuming (were I to have said air hammer) technique would be to get a blunt tip on it and just rattle the end of the shaft? A chisel tip behind the hub would fuck that up too much for me to even think about.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:55

1

I'm actually going to have my tire balance checked now because of a weird wobble vibration near 70mph. Hopefully it's that or I may have hurt something when I broke my mustache bar a couple weeks ago....

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:56

0

Is the hub carrier aluminum? If so you might be SOL. If everything is steel heat it to HOT and then run it under a hose of cold water. Sometimes the thermal shock can be enough to break things free. Just dunking it in a bucket of cold water might not be enough if it holds enough heat to warm the water bucket up too quickly.

The other thing to try would be a bearing puller. We use those at work with great success, at least where the parts have enough of a flange to get a grip on them.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > davedave1111 01/05/2015 at 14:57

0

A press would do this job a treat if I could back the hub properly. I don't have quite the calibre (English spelling because Jag) of puller/splitter to do justice on the level of the ~15 ton press, sadly.

uofime > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:57

0

if that doesn't work there's always the option of increasing the size of hammer, amount of heat and number of profanities per second until something gives up

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 01/05/2015 at 14:59

0

A bearing puller of Cretaceous size might do the trick, but yo no lo tengo. The hub carrier is aluminum, but I doubt I can actually heat things enough to pose it a risk, given what a nuisance it was even heating it as much as I did.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 14:59

0

nah shit that wont work. just soak it in atf and I will take a look at my basement IRS tonight and see if I can come up with anything

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 01/05/2015 at 15:01

1

I read an anecdote from somebody that was trying to get a wheel unstuck from the outer splines (knockoffs), and had tried heating and putting a puller on it. Gave up for the evening, and some hours later heard a "BANG". Wheel and puller under strain had popped off and flown 15+ feet from the vehicle... the vehicle he'd had his head next to earlier.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:05

0

If you can fit the whole thing in a freezer, try freezing it overnight and then hitting it with heat as soon as possible after taking it out of the freezer.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 01/05/2015 at 15:05

0

I thought I remembered you saying you had one. The main point of breaking mine down Saturday was actually to get the girder where I could cut the ends on it and fit it between the rails on the Ranchero - that's going well except that I will need to make new end caps out of 11GA from here at work. The stock rubber bush locations weren't going to work, and I have to mod the frame too - I'm doubling up on the rail and extending it down so I don't have a huge cantilever behind the suspension girder with no support. It's about 2 feet from the girder to the old spring shackle point...

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 01/05/2015 at 15:06

0

We've got a deep-freeze, that may be worth a try.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > uofime 01/05/2015 at 15:07

0

Profanities to 110%, captain? We won't be able to hold that for long...

davedave1111 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:13

0

'Back the hub'?

As for screw threads v presses, you might be surprised if you work out the gear multiplication effect of a typical screwthread. A 1" (metric) bolt with the fine standard thread has a pitch of 0.25mm (~.1"). That means the nut moves that much for each 360 degree turn. If you use a meter/yard long handle for your spanner, you're moving the end through 3 metres to get a .25mm gain, so the multiplier is 12000x. Push on the end of the spanner with more than a couple of pounds of force and you're probably exerting more force than the press would.

(Sorry for the horrible metric/Imperial mish-mash.)

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:16

0

Good luck.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > davedave1111 01/05/2015 at 15:32

1

"back the hub" = properly get support behind that mounting plate with wheel lugs, as my other option is to support the only partially flat face of the bearing carrier. The axle slides out the back, so supporting the back of the mounting face and pressing on the tip of the axle is as legitimate as anything else.

Your point on the puller is well taken - I just don't happen to have one of quite that size. The puller I've got is a 5/8" screwthread with little ability to go beyond a foot and a half in lever length without risk to its strength... but it still might work, and I can certainly heat the workpiece with a puller attached far better than I can heat something under the press. Call it about a 2000x multiplier for 5/8-18 thread (or whatever it is, may actually be specialized thread up to twice that).

VincentMalamute-Kim > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:35

0

oh man, I had the same thing with my Forester axle/hub. Crowmolly said rosebud tip. I would have said use the cutting torch head without the actual O2 cutting action. I don't know which is hotter.

And heat it while it's being pressed in the 20K lb press. And then when it's red hot, under 20K lbs, pound the shit out of it with a hammer as it's cooling.

After that experience, I bought new hub/spindle/axle pieces for the other side instead of going through all that again.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:35

0

Disassemble at the U Joint (or CV), and drill the rest of the sucker out.

That or get a freakishly monster press. 200 tons should do the trick.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/metalworking…

#YouDidntSayItHadToSurviveIt

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > VincentMalamute-Kim 01/05/2015 at 15:38

0

About the cheapest way to do that would be to buy a whole other IRS for spares, probably north of $300... unless the guy I got this one from has a spare carrier just hanging around. Which he might, but I want to see if I can get this loose first.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:40

0

You need Kroil.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/05/2015 at 15:41

0

drill

Thermite. You know it's true.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:43

0

Try a nice drippy candle when you have it hot. The wax will wick up into the joint an help release it, and will remain after it cools. Seems to work much better than PB for me.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 15:48

0

But that tends to weld things. Thermite reactions are used to produce continuous welded rail.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/05/2015 at 15:49

1

Continuous welded rail and comedy, you mean. Thermite is one of the best producers of comedy per gram of anything out there.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/05/2015 at 16:03

0

Comedy can be used to cut things too.

Still, I think the 200 ton press is your best option.

orcim > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/06/2015 at 04:46

0

I sometimes use the tighten to loosen method. Could try and press the thing on tighter (I know, counter intuitive) to get any kinda of movement, and then go for the loosen? I've used that on bolts before and if there's any give at all, it'll break it free and allow the loosen option.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/06/2015 at 10:08

0

I looked at it quick, and didn't see a good workaround unless you have a 20 ton large press with alot of plates to pick up the back side of the hub. I have access to one and a half ton box of weird shaped plates to press on, but obviously barring you coming up here with it in your carry on....

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 01/06/2015 at 10:26

0

I'm thinking I'll try chilling the whole thing, then heating the hub with a puller on it. davedave pointed out (quite correctly) that it doesn't take much for a puller to hit the same threshold for force as a 20 ton press, and I can get a torch near a puller without overheating lines and seals and setting fires. I probably should shop around for a heavier puller than we have, though - it's a bit weenie.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/06/2015 at 10:37

0

advance auto has some pretty decent size pullers that will do fine for this too, I just worry about the face you have to pull against being too fragile. This is why I think a press is the way to go. just start soaking in atf though, I pulled a 40 year seized piston out of a cylinder that looked like it was one hunk of rust with just ATF and a mallet.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 01/06/2015 at 10:41

0

There is actually one trick with the press, and that is that it'll be very hard to grab the back face of the hub surface without riding on the wheel studs - so in terms of point loads distorting it, I'm not sure which is worse.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/06/2015 at 10:44

0

this is why the half ton box of plates that have been drilled, half mooned, star shaped, whatever you need is in there because it has been done before. Actually the guy that owns it works on Mercs, Audi, Jag, Land Rovers. I bet he has one for that. He also has a bridgeport to make the plate creation a bit easier too